The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

[Vulkanyaz]

Just killed Kanaxai in 1hr 11minutes with guild... 2 heroes + 1 random PUGer.
That with having to afk a few times >_>

6ursan, 4 monks, 1ss + 1bip. no consumables. completely unorganized too ^^
Only one of us remembered recall (lol), dunkoro had his skills disabled for 2/3 of the mission (another lol) and required no tactics other than "run in and kill stuff".
It was too easy :P
Killed the leviathan, lol.

MOAR NERF PLZ

[Marcus Ferret]

Originally Posted by Racthoh

when a player is fully capable of displaying the skill required to complete a task go ahead and abuse what you want. What I can only hope is that once players get tired of the bear they'll attempt what they resorted to Ursaning for with a more balanced approach. At least try and apply what you learned about the zone after you've had your fun with it. We took the opposite route; cleared it with the more balanced approach first before exploring the possibilities.

Think about it this way; they're well aware of what PvE skills are allowing players to do. If they kill every PvE skill responsible for the current state of 'difficult' content those of us who took the time to study the area will be able to continue playing the same zone as a result of past experiences. I would wager that most Ursaners (I would guess based on some of the silly things I've read in the recent skill update thread) would just outright stop whatever they were using the bear for if the skill is touched negatively. This is what I fear; the people who will immediately quit because they don't know how to apply what they learned and adapt. Personally I would much rather be with the group that adjusts than the group that sits around until someone else figures it out for me.

I've been following this thread for a while now but have withheld from posting as I believed that eventually, some form of reasoning would come from this discussion instead of merely pointing fingers at individuals or groups of players.

The latest skill update was introduced last night and Ursan has not been touched so gamers can still use it if they wish to do so for whatever purposes and areas they intend to explore. However, as Racthoh and many others have rightly pointed out, learning and improving one's gaming skill and experience is part of GW and if that aspect of the game is ignored, there is no one to blame but oneself.

Over the past few weeks, I have been taking friends and guildies down to DoA and Urgoz running Ursan in order that they would be able to familiarise themselves with the areas and spawns for the simple reason that it is fast and effective as I would probably tear my hair out in frustration if it was done with a standard build.

In the past, we have cleared Urgoz in 80 mins without utilising Ursan, 70 mins for The Deep; both with 50% players and 50% heroes. Ursan made it possible to complete Urgoz in 65 mins with a group of 12 players (I have yet to attempt The Deep with Ursan), 80% of which had never completed or been to the area before. Yes, it was all great fun and everyone got their monument, etc., but at the end of the day, I'm hoping for players who look beyond such simple gameplay. Players who would say, "Hey, that was a walk in the park! Let's try a balanced build and maybe even HM!"

True, PvE skills such as TNTF and SY would probably find their way into a balanced build for such play, but they require skill management. There is balance, as success is not dependent on a single skill taking the entire team through an elite mission.

I remember a time before GW:EN was introduced when it took a whole lot of frustrating attempts to just clear Foundry in DoA.

I've heard this from many players in the past, and as Racthoh has pointed out above:

"Learn to adapt. It's make one a better player." It is not skills that maketh a player, but a person who learns and adapts his own skills to any given situation.

[trobinson97]

Originally Posted by Vulkanyaz

Just killed Kanaxai in 1hr 11minutes with guild... 2 heroes + 1 random PUGer.
That with having to afk a few times >_>

6ursan, 4 monks, 1ss + 1bip. no consumables. completely unorganized too ^^
Only one of us remembered recall (lol), dunkoro had his skills disabled for 2/3 of the mission (another lol) and required no tactics other than "run in and kill stuff".
It was too easy :P
Killed the leviathan, lol.

MOAR NERF PLZ

Watch what I do here. I just did the deep with no Ursan, no consumables, total pug in 1 hour and 5 minutes. It was way too easy, one monk and we were pretty unorganized. Nerf all skills "moar plz" *rolleyes*

[Vulkanyaz]

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Watch what I do here. I just did the deep with no Ursan, no consumables, total pug in 1 hour and 5 minutes. It was way too easy, one monk and we were pretty unorganized. Nerf all skills "moar plz" *rolleyes*

And what're your Deep runs like?
Something like;
"We had 2ppl and failed miserably. Make it easier!!!"
???

[Crom The Pale]

Originally Posted by Marcus Ferret

I've been following this thread for a while now but have withheld from posting as I believed that eventually, some form of reasoning would come from this discussion instead of merely pointing fingers at individuals or groups of players.

The latest skill update was introduced last night and Ursan has not been touched so gamers can still use it if they wish to do so for whatever purposes and areas they intend to explore. However, as Racthoh and many others have rightly pointed out, learning and improving one's gaming skill and experience is part of GW and if that aspect of the game is ignored, there is no one to blame but oneself.

Over the past few weeks, I have been taking friends and guildies down to DoA and Urgoz running Ursan in order that they would be able to familiarise themselves with the areas and spawns for the simple reason that it is fast and effective as I would probably tear my hair out in frustration if it was done with a standard build.

In the past, we have cleared Urgoz in 80 mins without utilising Ursan, 70 mins for The Deep; both with 50% players and 50% heroes. Ursan made it possible to complete Urgoz in 65 mins with a group of 12 players (I have yet to attempt The Deep with Ursan), 80% of which had never completed or been to the area before. Yes, it was all great fun and everyone got their monument, etc., but at the end of the day, I'm hoping for players who look beyond such simple gameplay. Players who would say, "Hey, that was a walk in the park! Let's try a balanced build and maybe even HM!"

True, PvE skills such as TNTF and SY would probably find their way into a balanced build for such play, but they require skill management. There is balance, as success is not dependent on a single skill taking the entire team through an elite mission.

I remember a time before GW:EN was introduced when it took a whole lot of frustrating attempts to just clear Foundry in DoA. The first successful Foundry run took 150 mins.

I've heard this from many players in the past, and as Racthoh has pointed out above:

"Learn to adapt. It's make one a better player." It is not skills that maketh a player, but a person who learns and adapts his own skills to any given situation.

An excelent intelligent post that very elloquently stated something I have been trying to get accross.

This skill, like all skills, is just a tool that can be used for good or bad.

The good is to use it for training, for learning what can and can not be done in zones where the learning curve is extremely unkind.

The bad are those people that refuse to allow party members a choice of wheather or not they will use that skill.

[Trub]

That was a CRAZY run!!!
If you look closely at that pic, and knew these guys in the team..it was a candy corn invasion on teh FoW!!
An off the cuff, spur of the moment "let's do something different" night..

Mesmer in need said:
"What? Why the need to include "sms" in there. No offence, but they arent the ultimate pve invinci guild. Singling them out like that makes it seem like they are the only ones who can do do it, and i bet much less organized groups have done near the same. But even though they beat it, how many of those people on the team were mesmers, assassins, or rangers? None."

And as for Rangers, um...I am a ranger...just wear different armors...alot!
______________
PvE Helpful Hint #4471: Splinter isn't nerfed, just more challenging to use!!

[Faer]

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

how many of those people on the team were mesmers, assassins, or rangers? None.

We've done it with Mesmer(s) and Ranger(s), and are very soon to do it with an Assassin, just because we can (and because Skuld needs his HoM pimped out further). Please know of what you speak before posting, and stop complaining about group discrimination just because your teams are too dumb to work out how to use certain professions outside of Ursanway.

And by the way, I wonder why you support Ursanway, when you yourself say it's not fair to people who don't have certain games (which includes Eye of the North, in case you hadn't noticed). Is it worse for that Factions Elemenalist to lack a single skill from a build, or for that Factions Elementalist to lack the single skill that is the build?

[Zeek Aran]

I was just in GToB and a person was spamming a link to a gold-selling site. I told everyone in local to report him, and was called an idiot. I explained to them why it was against the rules, and I still got called an idiot. Someone actually reported me. "seras i reported u for bein an idiot" If people are this dumb, then just... wow... you can't really expect them to come up with any working build.

[Navaros]

Originally Posted by Faer

We've done it with Mesmer(s) and Ranger(s), and are very soon to do it with an Assassin, just because we can (and because Skuld needs his HoM pimped out further). Please know of what you speak before posting, and stop complaining about group discrimination just because your teams are too dumb to work out how to use certain professions outside of Ursanway.

Group discrimination is a completely valid complaint and if Ursanway is now correcting that problem, then the correction of that problem is more important for the good of the game than anything else and Ursanway should never be nerfed for that reason alone. Period.

Sure, really hardcore players in tight-knit Guilds may accept and succeed with unwelcome classes in DOA/Urgoz/Deep etc., but a Guild like that is a luxury that the vast majority of players do not have and never will have. Just because it can be in theory, under very specific circumstances for those who have the luxury of a great Guild, does not mean that the player of an unwelcome class will ever have the opportunity to join a team in the areas where his class is unwelcome.

It is far better and more equitable for the super hardcore elite players to have "newbies" encroaching on their territory a little bit, than to have almost 100% of the players from unwelcome classes ever having the opportunity to participate in the endgame areas of the game.

[Faer]

Originally Posted by Navaros

under very specific circumstances

If by that you mean "not being bad", then yes, you would be correct.

[Auron of Neon]

How can you even begin to pretend that Ursan Blessing getting bad players into groups as a mesmer or rit or whatever does anything good? The player isn't improving in quality; hell, he isn't even playing a mes or rit or ranger. When they go in with Ursan, they get a totally new skillbar of unblockable, overpowered shit that has nothing to do with whatever primary they are.

That does nothing good for the game.

[Zeek Aran]

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

How can you even begin to pretend that Ursan Blessing getting bad players into groups as a mesmer or rit or whatever does anything good? The player isn't improving in quality; hell, he isn't even playing a mes or rit or ranger. When they go in with Ursan, they get a totally new skillbar of unblockable, overpowered shit that has nothing to do with whatever primary they are.

That does nothing good for the game.

It lets people who primarily play those professions and H/H everything because they aren't let into PUGs.

[Navaros]

Originally Posted by Faer

If by that you mean "not being bad", then yes, you would be correct.

Being bad has nothing to do with it whatsoever. It does not enter into it because no one will ever even consider to take you on the team if you are in an unwelcome class, 100% regardless of your skill. 100% regardless of anything other than your class itself which prior to Ursan, happening to be the right class was the only possible way to ever get invited to be on a team in Deep, Urgoz, or DOA, and if you are a member of unwelcome class, you are SOL and will never get invited to a team or be able to play there.

[Thom Bangalter]

I don't know/care if anyone has made a strong case for why ursan blessing is overpowered, but here's the reason:

it completely bypasses any form of shutdown, therefore making it overpowered, as you don't have to take any sort of precaution or evaluate your bar before you attempt an area, you just slap it on and you're good to go. There should be no skill in the game that does that sort of damage and is immune to all forms of shutdown sans death; even the most powerful pve skills before it (SY, TNTF, seed of life) can be disabled through vocal or enchantment removal; ursan is just a button you hit to win the game for you, and autowin buttons have no place in a team-based game that is supposed to promote skill.

[Zeek Aran]

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I don't know/care if anyone has made a strong case for why ursan blessing is overpowered, but here's the reason:

it completely bypasses any form of shutdown, therefore making it overpowered, as you don't have to take any sort of precaution or evaluate your bar before you attempt an area, you just slap it on and you're good to go. There should be no skill in the game that does that sort of damage and is immune to all forms of shutdown sans death; even the most powerful pve skills before it (SY, TNTF, seed of life) can be disabled through vocal or enchantment removal; ursan is just a button you hit to win the game for you, and autowin buttons have no place in a team-based game that is supposed to promote skill.

Energy denial pretty much pwns it. That is, for warriors without 15/15 sets. But... that's about it.

[snikerz]

I'm having a hard time thinking of an area that would flat out drain 50+ energy on a warrior with a +30 set and full radiants.

mallyx energy drain is another example, the obvious thing to do is have spirit control, seems UB needs a tactic or 2 huh

[Joe Fierce]

i'm going to have to agree that ursan blessing is the most utterly unbalanced skill in the game, making a build creation process obsolete.............but when i can get my ranger through doa without having to bip or tank with him (both of which i utterly despise 40+ tanked runs on my tank 100's ss'd or bipped on my necro can do that to a person) I'm definitely not complaining, but, even to that effect... it completely destroys my previous accomplishments with my ele, tank and necro, where as it used to be something to be proud to say "i've done hundreds of runs", when billy bob joe brown whose only real teacher in life was the leeroy jenkins you tube special can but in and say "y0u sh00b i've done kajillions of thems" doesn't exactly make one feel like they've accomplished something. which brings us to an indecisive conlusion that this is another case of guild wars nimby (not in my back yard) those who gained benifit of not having to fit into the trinity (us rangers and mesmers) say hey, leave it be, it makes me have a place in the team. Whereas those who took their time and skill to run the area is simply disgusted with the prospect of a UB team will say "hey nerf that.. ffs".


either way, no matter what anet does, everyone is going to Q_Q about it....to rather than discuss it, lets just wait and see.

-joe fierce

[Racthoh]

Originally Posted by snikerz

mallyx energy drain is another example, the obvious thing to do is have spirit control, seems UB needs a tactic or 2 huh

Every step you take will trigger the other spirit (Enduring Torment), giving you a point of energy back because you took damage.

[Zeek Aran]

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I'm having a hard time thinking of an area that would flat out drain 50+ energy on a warrior with a +30 set and full radiants. There is one room in the Deep I believe where you'll get hit with a lot of Energy Burns, but that is basically the only area off the top of my head where the Ursan would be hit hard.

I said withOUT the 15/15 set. >-< Normally a warrior has 20-15 energy, so a melee/non radiant warrior can be drained easily against ethers [this happened to me in Vabbi].

[Racthoh]

Originally Posted by Zeek Aran

I said withOUT the 15/15 set. >-< Normally a warrior has 20-15 energy, so a melee/non radiant warrior can be drained easily against ethers [this happened to me in Vabbi].

My bad ><. I just remembered there being a post about energy denial in the recent pages and just did a quick search without reading it.